Co-signed. 100%.

Well said!!

The live phis app still sucks. Actually it is worse. The featured show use to be the previous night.

Is this supposed to be a review? That rant was way too long. Get it out of your system? I bet you feel even angrier after writing that.

What would have given you the impression it was supposed to be a review? LOL.

Agreed. Done with Phish webcasting

I don't know about anyone else but once I got on YouTube not only was it great, but it was the most reliable, never buffering, never degraded Phish Webcast I've ever seen. I imagine they have to figure out authentication, but this should be a wakeup call that using a massive already built infrastructure like YT is far preferable to the moronic efforts used before.

And yeah the app sucks.

Well said Toby_Flen and you BERT. Heads need to roll as soon as this tour is over as in terminate that provider and figure this shit out. And at least make tonight's webcast FREE to those who ordered last night. I doubt the band has any idea the enormity of the webcast problems last night which is good. They need to focus on the 30 minute Roses Are Free I'm waiting for. Awesome set II screams WE ATTACK!

That was very well written. Ever considered studying law (if you don't already)? I completely agree and empathize with you on every point made. The botched access to the product is a reflection of the artists themselves. They need to get a grip on these repeat technical failures, or pholks will begin to walk away in a mass exodus.

Chill out. We all love Phish and they love you too. Should have gone to YouTube.

Thank you for writing this.

I gave up on Phish streaming after the first night of the Santa Barbara run was so messed up for me that I gave up "watching" after the first set. I do a full cleanup of my computer for these kinds of things and it still crashed and was glitchy repeatedly. No mas, it's not worth it just to be able to watch the CK5 lightshow.

True story

After everything that happened last night, this is what phish.net decides to post. This is embarrassing.

I'll agree that "technical difficulties" I'm sure sucked for those on couch tour, but those still relying on the couch tour albeit thousands across the country, get used to it. Halloween should've been a flawless stream, but I know way too many people who live 30-45 minutes from a show and would rather just sit on their couch. Go to the show or get the livephish download the next day. Streaming is hardly a Phish experience. Especially all the shows this year in NY and the east coast, come on. In CA we finally got a tour after 20 years of waiting. Vegas is always fun for Halloween, much better than Atlantic Shitty. It was a blast!

@Floyd said:

Phish pulled off arguably the greatest set of their career (only big cypress can contest it but I still think this was better) last night and you are going to go after them over technical difficulties?

LOL, glad you thought it was the best Phish set ever. The review of the show, is of course, forthcoming. I'm quite certain @bertoletdown watched the show and enjoyed it tremendously on YouTube. He didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. BUT, when you pay $30 and make party arrangements- and the first 30 minutes of the webcast is not airing: it makes for lots of frustration.

There SHOULD be a refund and not just a credit for future webcast. Phish SHOULD reconsider Nugs as a partner. Nugs has been a series of embarrassments and failures. The way they treat their customers (fans) in a condescending, arrogant and 'couldn't be bothered' tone is what is most troubling.

Also troubling is the vindictiveness of people like you that can't ever hear a single complaint about Phish without resorting to personal attacks and telling the person that is thoughtfully sharing their opinion that they should "never listen to Phish again".

Phish is a rock band. Not some God-deity beyond reproach.

It is his opinion.

If you have yours: share it. Tell people how you feel about Nugs & LivePhish without going off the rails. (and double-posting).

I'm with Chris though: last night was frustrating and a symptom of a problem that has been festering since 2009. Enough is enough.

"Many people made it onto the lifeboats the night The Titanic sank, but that was cold comfort to those who did not."

LOL, this. Truly unfortunate last night. I luckily managed to get through during the mule duel, but my frustration and anger prior to that parallels the sentiments here to the letter. Nugs.net is the post-industrial Detroit of Internet sites. There must be some contractual obligation involved, but as @bertoletdown strongly suggests, that's no excuse.

As for the show, to me it was the strongest effort of 2014, high praise I give without hesitation. The costume set, conceptually, proved more creative and engaging than any classic rock cover album had yet realized. Do we even need to discuss how righteous and glorious that late third-set Sand was?

@lumpblockclod said:

Co-signed. 100%.

You people that are whining sound pathetic.

You know what would be the best idea for Phish. Eliminate the problem. No more webcast. Then no complaints if they don't work. Either go to the show or listen to it later. No more whining. Instead the band chooses to coddle their fans who cant afford to travel or cant get tickets and you still complain... Ungrateful. Period. Should it be fixed if they choose to offer it?... Yes. Are you sooooo fucking lucky they even offer it in the first place?.... YES!!! And don't forget it. Ever had to chase down a shitty third-gen tape of a hot show two months after it's been played? Probably not, and if you have, then you forgot where you came from. Yes, it should be fixed. Yes, Nugs sucks. But seriously.... Take a step back for a minute. Sorry your first half hour sucked. My stream came in fine all night. Them's the breaks kid. Its also why I pay damn near $100 a month for my internet and wifi. Maybe you do too, maybe you don't. But to say last night was ROCK BOTTOM for the boys is by far the most laughable statement I've ever seen on this site (which I've been visiting since the late 90's). Sincerely, I'm sorry about the issues... I'm sure the band is too.. This was just a little too butthurt for me to take though.

@lumpblocked....I definitely enjoy your writing and your takes most of the time but I think you went a bit far with this. In all my years following bands and music scenes I truly have never come across a band that does more to connect with their fans and provide value than Phish. Now, on this tour a couple of issues have repeated themselves in ugly fashion (the ticket lottery and the live streams). I get it and I agree with you.

However, your language in this piece is not respectful. Your personal attacks on the band to try and shame them over this is unfair; certainly you don't speak for me or many other fans with such vitriol coming from your keypad.

I've only paid for one webcast this tour. I expected choppiness and I got it. I'm not happy about this either. I agree it needs to be dealt with. All I'm saying is that you could have made your point with less rancor. These guys are musicians first and foremost and I'm certain that these management issues have been delegated to other people. Perhaps the greater Phish entourage is what you meant by saying "Phish", but no matter, we can find more civil ways of communicating our frustrations, I think.

My clarifications aside, I certainly agree with you wholeheartedley that enough is enough. Don't promote the thing if you can't deliver. I think they should change services and run a couple of free events to beta-test it and then come back with the paid service after that.

Well written. This needed to be said. Cosigned 100%

@FACTSAREUSELESS said:

@lumpblocked....I definitely enjoy your writing and your takes most of the time but I think you went a bit far with this. In all my years following bands and music scenes I truly have never come across a band that does more to connect with their fans and provide value than Phish. Now, on this tour a couple of issues have repeated themselves in ugly fashion (the ticket lottery and the live streams). I get it and I agree with you.

However, your language in this piece is not respectful. Your personal attacks on the band to try and shame them over this is unfair; certainly you don't speak for me or many other fans with such vitriol coming from your keypad.

I've only paid for one webcast this tour. I expected choppiness and I got it. I'm not happy about this either. I agree it needs to be dealt with. All I'm saying is that you could have made your point with less rancor. These guys are musicians first and foremost and I'm certain that these management issues have been delegated to other people. Perhaps the greater Phish entourage is what you meant by saying "Phish", but no matter, we can find more civil ways of communicating our frustrations, I think.

My clarifications aside, I certainly agree with you wholeheartedley that enough is enough. Don't promote the thing if you can't deliver. I think they should change services and run a couple of free events to beta-test it and then come back with the paid service after that.

Blog is mine, not lumpblockclod's.

And not the staff's either, it should be mentioned. I'm throwing myself on the grenade to some extent but I stand behind what I wrote. It was meant to be bracing, but I don't think it is uncivil and I don't think it is rancorous. If it's poorly received in the wake of a great show, I'm a hundred percent willing to take the heat. The band works too hard at what they do and their product is too important to be trusted to amateurs. The band deserves better but it appears that they are both the only ones capable of addressing the issue and at least somewhat unaware that the problem exists.

I'll be in the band's corner until I die. Tough love is sometimes called for.

What a bunch of fucking whiners. I'm sure the people who drowned on the titanic feel terrible for you that you weren't able to hear every second of your concert as it happened.

I was also unsuccessful in watching the show until YouTube late in the first set. My world did not come crashing to an end and neither did yours. I can't believe that this was actually posted as a blog on phish.net. I'd expect it as a rant on the forum, but not as a blog posting. You all need to put this in perspective.

There are a few models out there that work well for paid-event streaming, most particularly in sports. But those are on a tremendous scale - the economics for those ecosystems are massive, exponentially higher than what Live Phish / Nugs has to work with. In the music realm, Phish has no competitors. There is NO ONE doing what they do in the music space. Yes, there are companies out there that are trying - TourGigs, for example. But none of those webcasts draw any real traffic compared to Phish. There have been plenty of ventures in this space, and they have all failed. TourGigs may not exist in 24 months. And if companies like that tried to work with Phish, they'd be out of their league. Not in the video production end, but the streaming end.

From what I know Nugs has worked hard to build backup/redundancy/failsafe options for streaming from the venue. They have multiple paths going for every webcast, including a recently purchased satellite backup. Last night's issue seemed to be a data center issue, which must have been incredibly frustrating, because that's a third party vendor that Nugs does not control. Also: 9 times out of 10 the stream issues that people experience though (glitchy feeds that cut out) are on the user side, not the server side.

What Nugs needs to do, and quick: explore redundancy at every point in their chain and take a Customer Service 101 class (though they have come a LONG way in this area, at Phish's direction). They simply can't afford to lose any more good will. Phish would be smart to explore alternative vendors that can power the stream in a turnkey way.

I'm sure it was incredibly frustrating for you Bertolet if you were throwing a Halloween party to not be able to connect. I'm sure backstage at the venue they were FREAKING THE FUCK OUT too. Very smart of them to pull the ripcord and port the stream to Youtube last night. That was the nuclear option, so I'm sure it was not an easy decision.

But a little positivity, patience and benefit of the doubt would be helpful here.

@Dunwyth: Are you really suggesting that I have imagined all of the non-Phish live concert webcasts I've seen over the last half decade?

I webcasted Bonnaroo a few years ago without a single dropout all WEEKEND. This was probably 2010, maybe 2011.

Positivity and benefit of doubt have been given in abundance.

I noticed you joined the site today. Just to type this? Okay.

@mwags said:

Whiny little bitch.

Bless your heart.

You couldn't get it together to get to Vegas ...VEGAS for phish and you're going to get on here and piss and moan about your webcast-based, straight-up 21st century "problems" ayfkm??! Maybe throw a better Halloween party; one that isn't intently dependent on everyone watching TV. I get that you're really butthurt. If I had missed a single second of that I would be SO PISSED today, but getting on here and ranting and raving about how the band hit rock bottom because is ludicrous.

Webcast fans, couch terr heads, and all of the others bitching from the sidelines didn't "brung them" anywhere. Go complain to Nugs.net

Halloween 2014 ruled

phish's ticketing and webcasting systems have been plagued with problems for years, they're getting worse as the fanbase relies more and more on digital channels, and it's important that the band hear from the fans -- especially from fans with a platform, able to speak to and for a big section of the community. the music is the music and 'we should be grateful' etc etc etc, but when the business/tech sides of the operation let the music down, that needs to be addressed right away.

this needed saying, @bertoletdown. thanks for that.

some childish bullshit in this thread. c'mon now.

Is is possible that the problem is with your local internet connection (Comcast?) and maybe not the actual stream? The internet experience is only as good as its weakest part. Just a thought.

Here's the thing. Nugs sucks. LivePhish streams suck. Even if other services can't keep up, one service did. And that one probably saw FAR more views than the number that paid because it was free. $5 is too much to pay for a stream that causes you to miss ANY part of the show. But YouTube handled it just fine. Why not switch to them permanently? Who cares if it's not a small company? They do what they say they will. Nugs does not. It's not whining. It has nothing to do with the spectacular show they played. But $30 is an expensive stream. And when you pay for something, it better be exactly what you paid for or you get a refund. It's plain and simple customer service.

Thank you for speaking for us. I applaud your bravery as you are most certainly going to get killed by half of the other phans out there. I'm usually one to be against the harsh criticism that many dish out over these sites, but I think this was warranted. We still love you Phish, but please fix this. And PLEASE FIX THE APP!!! It "was" wonderful. It's useless to me now.

I don't understand the hostility. The author isn't calling out any of you. Nor is he whining. He is pointing out issues that exist, and will continue to exist, unless an unresponsive company changes their ways and starts to provide us dedicated fan-base with the service(s) they claim they can deliver.

+1 to the post, @bertoletdown

And exactly what @waxbanks said above. He eloquently nailed it.

@Roachdog74 said:

Is is possible that the problem is with your local internet connection (Comcast?) and maybe not the actual stream? The internet experience is only as good as its weakest part. Just a thought.

When I have problems with LP casts the first thing I do is stream from other publishers to make sure my connection isn't the issue. As I did last night.

I also pulled up Twitter and my feed was jammed with others having exactly the same problems. My laptop sits right next to my router for these events, and I even transferred the ethernet cable from the back of the router straight into my computer, just in case it was the wifi signal coming from 2 feet away. That didn't do anything.

@bertoletdown said:

@FACTSAREUSELESS said:

@lumpblocked....I definitely enjoy your writing and your takes most of the time but I think you went a bit far with this. In all my years following bands and music scenes I truly have never come across a band that does more to connect with their fans and provide value than Phish. Now, on this tour a couple of issues have repeated themselves in ugly fashion (the ticket lottery and the live streams). I get it and I agree with you.

However, your language in this piece is not respectful. Your personal attacks on the band to try and shame them over this is unfair; certainly you don't speak for me or many other fans with such vitriol coming from your keypad.

I've only paid for one webcast this tour. I expected choppiness and I got it. I'm not happy about this either. I agree it needs to be dealt with. All I'm saying is that you could have made your point with less rancor. These guys are musicians first and foremost and I'm certain that these management issues have been delegated to other people. Perhaps the greater Phish entourage is what you meant by saying "Phish", but no matter, we can find more civil ways of communicating our frustrations, I think.

My clarifications aside, I certainly agree with you wholeheartedley that enough is enough. Don't promote the thing if you can't deliver. I think they should change services and run a couple of free events to beta-test it and then come back with the paid service after that.

Blog is mine, not lumpblockclod's.

I'll be in the band's corner until I die. Tough love is sometimes called for.

My bad on misquoting the author. I knew that; it was an absentminded error.
I appreciate the second statement I left in your quote and don't disagree with you. Still think there is a more productive way to make the point than ripping them on a public fan site. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I feel about it.

Great post. Well said. PH better get serious about their brand. It's equity took a hit last night.
I never really come on here and read comments, but I'm kind of taken aback by the lack of maturity. As others have said, if you disagree just say so. Name calling, etc.? Weird.

@Dunwyth said:

But a little positivity, patience and benefit of the doubt would be helpful here.

I think the point is that fans have been patient. There were technical difficulties during the very first set of webcasts in 2010. But it was the first time they did it and people generally were forgiving. That was four years ago. The issues persist. And Nugs barely acknowledges the issues.

So we're at the point where we can either just stop purchasing webcasts or we can start shining a light on the situation in no uncertain terms so that those who can make a difference will do so. When LiveNation/TicketMaster drop the ball during the ticket sale process, no one hesitates to call them out. Why is this any different? It's not personal. This process is broken and it hasn't been addressed (certainly not with anything resembling transparency). It needs to be.

Thank you @FACTSAREUSELESS for predictably finding a way to disagree strongly without being mean. I appreciate it greatly.

There's a very upbeat recap coming from a host of contributors, btw. I'm listening to the 2nd set right now and rather ecstatic about that. So great.

@waxbanks said:

phish's ticketing and webcasting systems have been plagued with problems for years, they're getting worse as the fanbase relies more and more on digital channels, and it's important that the band hear from the fans -- especially from fans with a platform, able to speak to and for a big section of the community. the music is the music and 'we should be grateful' etc etc etc, but when the business/tech sides of the operation let the music down, that needs to be addressed right away.

this needed saying, @bertoletdown. thanks for that.

some childish bullshit in this thread. c'mon now.

Good comments and counterpoint. I respect both of you for your thoughful analysis when you offer it. Context is everything.

All I'm going to say is that this blog is even more meaningful and on point *considering* what else this band does for us. Webcasting is as much the future as television was in the 30s and cable TV in the 70s and satellite TV in the 90s. If you don't keep up, you get left behind. Nobody wants that for Phish.

@bertoletdown said:

Thank you @FACTSAREUSELESS for predictably finding a way to disagree strongly without being mean. I appreciate it greatly.

There's a very upbeat recap coming from a host of contributors, btw. I'm listening to the 2nd set right now and rather ecstatic about that. So great.

Maybe the review could have been posted before the essay! Haha!
Then again, to your point, this would have lessened your desired effect.

This site is great and whether I agree or disagree you're the first group I look to when I want the pulse of the Phish community. Thanks for all you folks do for us on the fringe.

This is the first review on this site that I completely agree with--all of it. I hope Phish is aware of the fact that this reviewer speaks for thousands, mahalo. Find a new vendor or Lego my Eggo.

Ever had to chase down a shitty third-gen tape of a hot show two months after it's been played? Awesome old-school comment...love it! I've done this so many times and glad I don't have to anymore.

Some decent points here but how can you realistically blame the band?? Don't blame them, blame their management. How do you know the level of involvement the band has with the streams? Probably not much. 100% agreed that they need to burn Nugs and get a real, professional vendor to handle the streams. Nugs is rookie noob time. They just came out with an upgrade to the app? A bit slow to the party. When they're charging $20-$30 per stream, they can afford a 5 star IT dept.

Don't put it on the boys unless you know their level of involvement. They focus on the amazing music that we all are magnetized to, not this shit. At the level they're at, they should be doing everything at gold standards. Nugs is at the Mexi brick weed level.

I watched a live CRB show on Yahoo Live last week and it was tremendous. I absolutely thought during the show, "now why can't phish have a broadcast like this?"

Well written rant. It needed to be said.

Well said @bertoletdown. My sentiments exactly. I appreciate how you encapsulated the bigger problem and not just last night's stream issues.

I love Phish and I love hearing well spoken phans express themselves.

I, like many others, was beyond frustrated to begin the night last night. I left another event early in order to come home and webcast the show with my significant other only to be totally shut out from livephish.com. I was totally unable to even purchase the webcast much less view it. What an unnecessary frustration.

I commend the decision to switch over to YouTube mid-stream. Great call! That said, it should never have come to that. Will this cause me to balk at buying webcasts in the future? Yes. Yes it will.

@bertoletdown speaks for me as well. Nugs has been a chronic embarrassment to Phish, a band which has prided itself on being ahead of the curve and putting its fans first. This has zero to do with the quality of last night's show (stellar) and everything to do with the continued failure of Nugs as an organization (pathetic).

It's no surprise to hear from the "yes, please, piss in my ear" contingent. You can continue to slurp up whatever crap is shoveled your way. For the rest of us that expect better, well said, CB.

I vote (with whoever said it above) for permanent move to YouTube. Would work for me.

Also glad to see Waxbanks reappear and make a comment -even on this kind of thread.

First, the streaming issues have literally nothing to do with the music and criticizing it has nothing to do with the band in isolation and is more about their organization (IMHO). They're job is to play music, the organizations job is to do the rest. People that don't understand that are the same ones that think supporting the troops means never criticizing the government. That being said, It comes down to this: Either they fix the stream and we all pay happily for it- or they don't- and some 'illegal' method will pop up like phish version of pirate bay. I don't want that- I think we should pay to see the band- even over the Internet, BUT I'm not going to pay for a shit presentation of a magnificent product. Frankly, I think Phish (the band) should be as pissed as we are with phish, the organization- more pissed really. The org. Is essentially letting Nugs display a diamond by dropping it into the middle of a dung pile. I find it disrespectful not just to us, but to the band as well. Get it together grouch!

@Dunwyth said:

There are a few models out there that work well for paid-event streaming, most particularly in sports. But those are on a tremendous scale - the economics for those ecosystems are massive, exponentially higher than what Live Phish / Nugs has to work with. In the music realm, Phish has no competitors. There is NO ONE doing what they do in the music space. Yes, there are companies out there that are trying - TourGigs, for example. But none of those webcasts draw any real traffic compared to Phish. There have been plenty of ventures in this space, and they have all failed. TourGigs may not exist in 24 months. And if companies like that tried to work with Phish, they'd be out of their league. Not in the video production end, but the streaming end.

From what I know Nugs has worked hard to build backup/redundancy/failsafe options for streaming from the venue. They have multiple paths going for every webcast, including a recently purchased satellite backup. Last night's issue seemed to be a data center issue, which must have been incredibly frustrating, because that's a third party vendor that Nugs does not control. Also: 9 times out of 10 the stream issues that people experience though (glitchy feeds that cut out) are on the user side, not the server side.

What Nugs needs to do, and quick: explore redundancy at every point in their chain and take a Customer Service 101 class (though they have come a LONG way in this area, at Phish's direction). They simply can't afford to lose any more good will. Phish would be smart to explore alternative vendors that can power the stream in a turnkey way.

I'm sure it was incredibly frustrating for you Bertolet if you were throwing a Halloween party to not be able to connect. I'm sure backstage at the venue they were FREAKING THE FUCK OUT too. Very smart of them to pull the ripcord and port the stream to Youtube last night. That was the nuclear option, so I'm sure it was not an easy decision.

But a little positivity, patience and benefit of the doubt would be helpful here.

This. This is the voice of Reason.

@Jestinphish said:

You know what would be the best idea for Phish. Eliminate the problem. No more webcast. Then no complaints if they don't work. Either go to the show or listen to it later. No more whining. Instead the band chooses to coddle their fans who cant afford to travel or cant get tickets and you still complain... Ungrateful. Period. Should it be fixed if they choose to offer it?... Yes. Are you sooooo fucking lucky they even offer it in the first place?.... YES!!! And don't forget it. Ever had to chase down a shitty third-gen tape of a hot show two months after it's been played? Probably not, and if you have, then you forgot where you came from. Yes, it should be fixed. Yes, Nugs sucks. But seriously.... Take a step back for a minute. Sorry your first half hour sucked. My stream came in fine all night. Them's the breaks kid. Its also why I pay damn near $100 a month for my internet and wifi. Maybe you do too, maybe you don't. But to say last night was ROCK BOTTOM for the boys is by far the most laughable statement I've ever seen on this site (which I've been visiting since the late 90's). Sincerely, I'm sorry about the issues... I'm sure the band is too.. This was just a little too butthurt for me to take though.

The band can't be held responsible for the stream problems we've all experienced on couch tour at some time or another. I truly believe they make the best effort for this community. And their responsibility is that sound we all love. That they have given. Once the notes are played they float away in the silken haze and fall just where they are supposed to.

@mshannonlee said:

@Jestinphish said:

You know what would be the best idea for Phish. Eliminate the problem. No more webcast. Then no complaints if they don't work. Either go to the show or listen to it later. No more whining. Instead the band chooses to coddle their fans who cant afford to travel or cant get tickets and you still complain... Ungrateful. Period. Should it be fixed if they choose to offer it?... Yes. Are you sooooo fucking lucky they even offer it in the first place?.... YES!!! And don't forget it. Ever had to chase down a shitty third-gen tape of a hot show two months after it's been played? Probably not, and if you have, then you forgot where you came from. Yes, it should be fixed. Yes, Nugs sucks. But seriously.... Take a step back for a minute. Sorry your first half hour sucked. My stream came in fine all night. Them's the breaks kid. Its also why I pay damn near $100 a month for my internet and wifi. Maybe you do too, maybe you don't. But to say last night was ROCK BOTTOM for the boys is by far the most laughable statement I've ever seen on this site (which I've been visiting since the late 90's). Sincerely, I'm sorry about the issues... I'm sure the band is too.. This was just a little too butthurt for me to take though.

I meant to say, this post nails the point to wall.

The 1997 schvice was a hint that they were going to webcast via dial up modem. I just wish I remembered my compuserve login.

What's the YouTube link for tonight?

Devoted Phan for a very long time. And yes I did finally join instead of lurk just to comment on this. I was furious about the tweet saying some were in, only a few were left out. A nice big Halloween 'FahQ" in my face. Therefore, I believe his review is definitely with merit.

Some of us can't get to shows that far away or have young kiddos to take out trick or treating and rely on the cast to celebrate just like everyone else. Not getting this right is a big deal and should be reviewed by the powers that be. This is more than a glitch during a stream. This was total meltdown. YouTube did provide the best stream I've experienced. Second Set was some of the coolest stuff they've ever done and that Sand was straight fire.

Craziness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. As much as I love this band, I've never been into streaming the shows. But if I did I'm sure it would be frustrating to have to deal with the hiccups. And if the next I streamed a show and there we hiccups I again would be super bummed.

So after all this, why would I keep streaming?

Seriously, what does it take to just get a show review on this site?

I say this all with great appreciation for the donations to the Mockingbird Foundation that have been made from the proceeds of LivePhish sales. That is a truly generous gesture from a very charitable band.

But what happened last night was inexcusable. It has nothing to do with how hard it is to stream video, which I will admit is technologically challenging. The LivePhish.com website was unavailable for an extended period. Not just the stream, the website. People couldn't even get to their stash to begin to try to watch the video. This was a failure at serving simple HTML. This indicates either a high level of incompetence or unpreparedness for the interest in the most anticipated show of 2014. Or both.

What we pay for when we buy a webcast is a live stream, as the show is happening. An archived stream doesn't make up for it. A code for a new stream doesn't make up for it. What will make up for it is if this never happens again. And if Phish can't ensure that, they should stop selling streams for top dollar, because the product isn't worth it.

@Dunwyth said:

I'm sure it was incredibly frustrating for you Bertolet if you were throwing a Halloween party to not be able to connect. I'm sure backstage at the venue they were FREAKING THE FUCK OUT too.

It's also worth mentioning that if they were indeed FREAKING OUT backstage, conveying that same sense of urgency and concern would go a long way. Last night, LivePhish.com was down for a full 30 min when they nonchalantly posted that the webcast was starting now and the band would be on in 10 minutes. I guess they picked an appropriate night to whistle past the proverbial graveyard! There was not a single acknowledgement that anything was wrong up until that time. Phish fans are forgiving, but show us you care and are working to make things better!

Then, once they did the right thing and switched to YouTube, they tweeted that many people could connect. What message were they trying to send with that tweet? Were they looking for congratulations? Talk about completely missing the point...

Okay, this piece best exemplifies "first world problems". I mean how spoiled and privileged must one be to even consider using the titanic as something analogous to being left out of a fucking webcast that you paid for. Seriously bro, apologize.

About the webcasts, I never partake, so , I could care less. I know I will have the soundboard in my hands by the next morning and can cue up a youtube video of the show the next day. So, why pay $30!!! for a video of guys that are ugly and just stand there anyway...I mean, hell, I barely watch when I am there. Too busy dancing, or have eyes closed. I never understood how one watches music anyway. Oh well, must suck to be the dude that wrote this piece.

First off, awesome sentiments and kudos to the site/community for getting behind this post.

I have been a devoted fan since the mid-90's and truly believe the band has the best intentions of engaging and delighting it's audience.

As someone who researches web analytics, creates content, and implements marketing strategies for a living I feel like I have a different perspective on the debate over the value and effectiveness of LivePhish. What is happening with the fan base now is a crying help for change. Phish, as a company, is alienating it's audience by allowing corporate marketing to run their business.

Obviously, Capshaw and MusicToday is a business decision by the band to alleviate the pressures of managing the corporate side of things. In order to do everything they would want to do as a band, from a marketing and content delivery standpoint, would require them to employ a ton of people. They are at a place where they shouldn't have to give a damn about this, and in all fairness they have worked way too hard to be in on every detail of how their business is being run. And we should support that idea. They should be allowed to concentrate fully on the music and have a group of people they trust delivering their digital content and running their business.

It's not 1994, running a company has changed dramatically over the past 20 years. That being said, I feel like a boutique marketing firm would be a better fit for Phish. The cash they lose on MusicToday would be better spent on a group of people who know their audience. MusicToday probably claims to know their audience, but that "knowledge" comes from corporate marketing folks who view fans as dollars and cents. Their main concern is getting LivePhish users to fit into their business plan, not wow them with the experience of being a part of the music. MusicToday might work for Dave Matthews or Tim McGraw fans (other MusicToday clients), but we Phish fans understand the uniqueness of our relationship with the band and are confused and upset at how that relationship is being tossed aside for the bottom line.

Last night, at best, there were between 5K-10K users watching the stream on YouTube. LivePhish customers who paid for this are a part of this number. Let's assume, and I'm being super generous, that 7,500 of these people were people who paid and ended up on YouTube as a solution to their undelivered LivePhish paid stream. At $30 a pop that's $225,000 in revenue. MusicToday slobbers at this number. They want this for every live show, and I'm sure the band would be stoked to make that much for a special event too. They deserve compensation for including the Couch folks. The problem is that the method in which Phish's content is being delivered is not effective- or what the fan base would expect from their favorite band.

Mike loves Couch Tour and posts Instagram photos regularly joyfully poking fun at it, so it's apparent that they know how we are engaging with them and like the fact that people are following along. Why would they take away the ability for fans to listen to the latest show for free and in essence kill an obviously popular method to participate in Couch Tour. And during a tour where a majority of east coast are counting on a stream? With social channels like Mixlr, UStream, and Livestream, fans are following along to free audio (sometimes video) streams every night of tour. The demand is for a free stream not a paid one if you look at the numbers beyond LivePhish. The devotion of the fan base would pay a nominal fee if the pricing was scaled in a way they found appropriate. I've watched video streams on UStream with upwards of 4,000 people before, chatting and watching for free. This displays that there is an audience for this service, it's just not being marketed correctly.

Who will facilitate fixing the disconnect between the fans and Phish's marketing decisions? Would you pay $5 per show for an audio or video stream? Would you pay $0.99 to listen after the fact as the old LivePhish app allowed fans to do for free previously? Hopefully this is what MusicToday product marketing folks are asking. As a Phish fan I want to pay them to listen along, just not the way MusicToday expects me to. Ultimately, some change needs to happen for Phish's audience to engage with their content in a way that gives the band some kind of revenue and entice fans into spending. All it takes is one person to broadcast their LivePhish video stream on UStream to allow thousands of fans to watch or listen along for free and, to me, that doesn't seem fair to JEMP or what their business model should be.

Last night when I heard Is This What You Wanted I thought, yes a free stream is almost what I wanted. That may not have been the context that the band envisioned with that song but it's definitely how I interpreted it.

Thinking back to refreshing Andy Gadiel's page back in the 90's I'm reminded of a time when just knowing what they were playing was a joy. We need to get back to that feeling all dollars and cents aside. Some kind of action is required and I hope our voices, questions, and demands are being heard.

I personal agree.And I'm not trying to "start any fires" here,but I've never believed in the "they can do no wrong" mentality.At the end of the day they are the heads of a BUSINESS,and continuing a partnership that is costing their fans money for shabby product is negligent and irresponsible.This issue needs to be resolved

@bertoletdown - to answer your question..of course trouble-free streams happen all the time. Every festival, Yahoo webcasts, etc. etc. Those are all free. I was talking specifically about PAID, secure webcasts. That is a different species.

I am a longtime lurker, yes. But I know a bit about the tech involved, and it really is more involved then most people think, so wanted to give my two cents. Appreciate the dialogue happening here.

@Maverick said:

Seriously, what does it take to just get a show review on this site?

Patience.

@Dunwyth said:

@bertoletdown - to answer your question..of course trouble-free streams happen all the time. Every festival, Yahoo webcasts, etc. etc. Those are all free. I was talking specifically about PAID, secure webcasts. That is a different species.

I am a longtime lurker, yes. But I know a bit about the tech involved, and it really is more involved then most people think, so wanted to give my two cents. Appreciate the dialogue happening here.

If you could educate me and others as to why a paywall makes streaming content more problematic, I'd definitely be interested in learning more about that.

Intuitively, it would seem that:

a. Charging for access limits your users and your traffic;

b. Once authenticated (i.e. logged into LP and having purchased the show which then resides in My Stash), you're just another user.

I guess I'm missing something. Premium Spotify members don't suffer more dropouts than users on the free service; in fact, I've never seen Spotify crash or sputter, going back to my early days as a member. I set my playback quality as high as it'll go, as well.

YouTube has a paywall for stuff like this, no? I suspect their paid streams are pretty reliable. Thank you in advance for whatever insight you can provide on the tech side of the equation.

@TheEmu said:
It's no surprise to hear from the "yes, please, piss in my ear" contingent. You can continue to slurp up whatever crap is shoveled your way. For the rest of us that expect better, well said, CB.[/quote]

It's completely inaccurate to say that we are in the "please, piss in my ear" contingent. I have ordered approximately 2 dozen webstreams from livephish.com. I have had problems with exactly 2 (last night and Chicago last year). In both instances, Livephish.com took all appropriate steps to ameliorate the situation as best they could. I live in a world in which mistakes happen. I don't expect perfection, I expect responsive customer service, which I am satisfied that I got.

1. I was able to watch the show live via YouTube before the end of set 1
2. I have 48 hours to watch it On Demand
3. Oh yeah, as an added bonus, even if I don't purchase the show, I can stream it from the live phish app.
4. I now have a voucher I can use for another HD webcast in the future-- and oh yeah, I'll get to stream that show in perpetuity as well.

I don't like my ear being pissed in any more than the next guy, I just understand the difference between piss and light rain showers.

Nailed it. Pay no nevermind to the naysayers. Last night's show was amazing. It speaks for itself. All it requires is a listen. That said, LivePhish sharted in the satin, claimed it was the dog, and then attempted to coyly cover their mouth, giggle, and say "ooops, tee hee" ... enough is enough. Do it right, or farm it out.

Um....it's just a concert. If it makes you so upset when there are problems then the real problem most likely with you. Just a concert. We opt in or can opt out anytime. Enjoy.

Maybe you should buy real tickets or save $30 and listen to it on Phish On Demand the day after.

You're the whitest dude ever.

Hmmm... Probably a valid criticism. But personally as one who remembers a time when it took months just to locate a crappy audience recording for shows, I'm going to have to file this under "First World Problems.

Timing is everything....

You posted a negative blog in the space where phans expect a glowing review of a stellar Halloween show; of course you're going to get pushback!

Next time, let the review post first... or at least let the glow from everyone's evening wear off before buzzkilling. I actually agree with your sentiment, but I certainly don't think this should be the first thing everyone reads after THAT show. This is actually phish.net's fault, they should be employing the best editors money can buy to catch these issues I can see the headlines now: Phish signs contract with Youtube, Phish.net contracts with HuffPo

Everything's amazing and nobody's happy

Whatever you guys experienced on the webcast last night, I can tell you it's being made up for right now! Smokin first set, reporting live from the MGM. Last night was clearly a "had to be there" to appreciate it kind of night. Or, like mine did, your parents had that wacky Halloween album when you were a kid and it tripped you the hell out! Last night was a good warmup, the musical costume has become a heavy cloak for the band and maybe they just put the tradition to rest.

We've seen other live shows glitch free. Who do they use?
I buy webcasts on special occasions such as Halloween and NYE. It's sad enough not to be there then add tech problems...
We can do better, that's all.

Thanks for posting this rant as it is exactly how I felt. Anyone who doesn't like your post was obviously NOT having a Halloween Party at their house! For a full 20 or 30 minutes I was not even getting an error message from Phish's server and thought the whole thing was my fault, as in something wrong with my internet! It put me in a really weird space with tons of guests and was just an overall bummer. Personally, reading your opinion here made me feel a bit better about a bad situation. I actually ended up apologizing to my guests for my off behavior, some of whom did not even care about the show but for sure noticed my weird somewhat frantic mood with all my attention on pressing refresh. Not exactly the costume or the vibe I was going for this Halloween. But all is well that end's well I guess. I still never got to see last nights first or third sets but watching MGM now, alone on my couch, glitch free. And grateful for it.

Did you not YouTube this? 2 minutes on .net and I was rolling for free

RIGHT ON!!! As a consumer it's your right to voice dissatisfaction, stronger & stronger at that if the problems persist!!!

Dude don't blame nugs. I gotten countless WSP, Big Gigantic, and more streams from them and it's always been perfect for everyone. Phish are cheap ass, money worshipping, lazy don't give phunk bout fans band since 2000. Put blame where it's due. Just like their overpriced tics for half ass shows you likewise paid more than any other band to stream and got a shit half ass connection so phish could bank the biggest profit. Nothing new here!!!

Thank You for this writeup! I lost my mind dealing with buggy web casting one too many times with the last time being Dicks night 2 which was the final straw. The time before that was the Tweezer fest show which was ruined for me due to glitches. I'm done with web casting as it's just not worth it. Hope this improves in the future at which point I will try again.

How is this for irony? I used a free code from a 2013 Chicago webcast debacle to watch last night's Halloween show webcast debacle only to wake up this morning to another free code offer.

Get it right already.

@Roachdog74 said:

Is is possible that the problem is with your local internet connection (Comcast?) and maybe not the actual stream? The internet experience is only as good as its weakest part. Just a thought.

Oh, you mean the largest cable monopoly that's seeking government permission to merge with the second largest cable monopoly and insure that even crappier service will be provided? Well, in that case, Nugs.net will have even more figuring out to do to attempt to provide reliable service for a high price.

Thanks for writing this, Chris. It needed to be said. Many of you who are critical of this opinion can't distinguish between the band and its management and business partners and think everything about Phish needs to be fluffed; you need to get a clue.

By the way, as to you who don't think this opinion should be on Phish.net, this IMO is exactly where it needs to be. Phish.net speaks for the organized fan base on the Internet as it always has going back to 1990. And it's not incidental that the fan charity that runs this site has invested (and continues to invest) thousands of dollars and countless man hours of unpaid volunteer effort working on the code base behind this site to insure that the site doesn't crash when up to 30,000 page requests hit on the servers at the same time during a show, something Nugs and TicketMaster need to figure out how to do as well.

Seeing that $29.95 debit card charge on my online bank statement today makes me mad. If it weren't that it was a Phish business partner, people like me would be on the phone today asking for the charges to be reversed. Some email acknowledgement (and apologies/refund) from Nugs.net/LivePhish today would also have been appropriate but nothing but crickets.

@ColForbin said:

I say this all with great appreciation for the donations to the Mockingbird Foundation that have been made from the proceeds of LivePhish sales. That is a truly generous gesture from a very charitable band.(snip)

Just to clarify and keep this namecheck and appreciation real, it is PHISH, tha band, that donates a portion of its revenues from LivePhish to the charitable efforts of our fan charity, the Mockingbird Foundation. Its business partner Nugs.net does not, although it claims some marketing benefit on its website for this donation. I am sure that if Phish changed service providers for streaming, it would keep donating the same portion of its revenues to TMF.

What a bunch of whiny bitches. If you can't make the show, get a fucking life and more hobbies. I love phish, but there are other things to do. Complaining? Not one of them.

The time I spent trading tapes and waiting, weeks or months, to hear hq hi gen recordings of incredible shows was way better than the time you babies spend bitching about bunk webcasts. Seriously, find another band to like. Faaaack, the titanic quote is the best, I feel sorry for you.

I had a blast last night doing other stuff for Halloween, and am sooo looking forward to listening to the set. Could care less that a bunch of people paid thirty bucks and got fuckall in return. You probably buy tickets from fucking stubhub too. Good luck in life.

The whambulance is on its way now.

What a bunch of whiney bitches. The stream was fine. No lagging, no pixelation, no problems. Sure, starting the stream so close to showtime felt more like a ticketmaster fiasco than a nugs stream, but if you had problems after that you need to blame your ISP, not Phish.

Very well said. The Technology is there it needs to work for the price we pay.

Are people seriously getting on OP's case for posting this? Phish needs to evaluate their partnership with this company as they represent them. Plain and simple.

If I was a five-star chef working in a restaurant where the waiter constantly dropped my food before it got to the customers, I would find a new waiter.

Maybe this is naive, but perhaps to make amends Phish could permanently post the show for free on YouTube so folks can watch it whenever they like and as often as they like.

I agree @niceTshirt .... the videos have been blocked for copyright. Seems kinda weird. I would think they would just let them stay up there considering all this.

Just say it. It's one thing to complain it's another to outline an issue and propose possible solutions which I think is the point. People are not complaining about the weather here. Being completely apathetic towards the plight of others just makes you a tool I don't want to ever meet on tour.

Thank you @bertoletdown for this VERY NECESSARY post, and for how well you said these things that needed to be said.

It is an undisputed FACT that Nugs.net collects money for a promised product, and delivers something that is broken. It does not deliver the product which it advertises and charges for. And when its customers alert them to the problems and seek remedies, they are at best aloof and at worst arrogant and seemingly contemptuous of their own customers for saying, "Hey, you sold me a broken product. Can I have one that works, please?"

It is mystifying to me that any fans would have a problem with someone saying this. These problems need to be fixed. The band's customers are getting ripped off. Period.
Someone actually said the original poster is "sooo lucky" that the webcasts are offered in the first place, so he shouldn't complain when he buys a webcast and it doesn't work. Let me ask: is that the attitude YOU use toward ANYTHING in the real world that you buy? "Oh, this tv I just bought doesn't turn on...but I'm soooo lucky the store sells them at all, so my bad, them's the breaks"???

@FACTSAREUSELESS said: Still think there is a more productive way to make the point than ripping them on a public fan site. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I feel about it.

Well there have been countless (by which I mean thousands, perhaps tens of thousands) tweets at LivePhish, almost all of which have gone unanswered. I've also been shown some fans' detailed, polite private emails to LivePhish noting the problems and cheerfully suggesting solutions...which went unanswered. Not even a form letter saying "thanks for writing." Nothing. Silence.

So now, here is a post about the problem on the leading, best-read fan site.

There's a much better way, you complain? What is it you had in mind? Please respond.

@J_D_G said:

Someone actually said the original poster is "sooo lucky" that the webcasts are offered in the first place, so he shouldn't complain when he buys a webcast and it doesn't work. Let me ask: is that the attitude YOU use toward ANYTHING in the real world that you buy? "Oh, this tv I just bought doesn't turn on...but I'm soooo lucky the store sells them at all, so my bad, them's the breaks"???

So true. Gee, Comcast really doesn't deliver on their promised download speeds, but just 20 short years ago I was using a dial-up modem and this is faster than that. I guess I'm pretty lucky and the good people at Comcast can go ahead and keep my money. Wouldn't want to come across as a whiney bitch.

This is such entitled whiny drivel. So your night didn't go like you wanted. Get over yourself. We are so used to instant access. We used to wait days or even weeks for a setlist and a month or more for tapes, and the quality was never guaranteed. We have grown so used so fast to digital access to shows that we've lost our gratitude. God forbid you have to wait for the next day to have soundboard quality music or HD video. Boo hoo. Instead of bitching, why not put on a classic Halloween show without video and dance? Nothing but entitled privilege here.

@irieied said:
We have grown so used so fast to digital access to shows that we've lost our gratitude.

Nothing but entitled privilege here.[/quote]

I'm not sure you understand the problem here. The video stream of Halloween was not offered as a free thank-you to fans, out of the warmth of anybody's heart. If that was the case, and someone was complaining bitterly that it did not include the first half hour of the show, and was never delivered in HD, I could see your point

But that's not what happened.

It was a product.

A product that cost $30.

It is seriously your contention that the original poster should feel "gratitude" for paying $30 for a stream and then not getting a stream?

You are right, he does sound entirely entitled. Because he WAS entitled to receive the HD stream that he paid for.

That's the basic foundation of our economy. Do you feel entitled to receive the things you pay for, or just "gratitude" that you were told it was onsale and had the chance to pay for it, even though you never actually received it? You are making no sense and should apologize for being rude to a thoughtful fan who is trying is best to make it so you and your friends can receive the live streams that you pay for. Because that is not currently happening.

@Dunwyth said:

But a little positivity, patience and benefit of the doubt would be helpful here.

The LivePhish app was not updated for four years. Four. Years.

As for the live webcasts, they have been a problem since 2010. Four years in, the problem is getting WORSE. No, the streams aren't perfect yet. No, the streams aren't improved. They are actually getting worse. After four years.

Most troublingly, Nugs consistently fails to improve from experience--look at Northerly Island. One year the stream was a disaster. The next year they offered a stream again, and it was a disaster again--and Nugs cited problems with the venue's internet infrastructure. The same infrastructure that was present the previous year. Yet they planned another webcast, promoted it, charged for it, and then threw up their hands and said "not our fault" when the original experience was replicated. I don't notice them giving any money back.

So exactly how much patience are you suggesting? Will five years of patience do the trick? Or do you recommend six? And in the meantime, how many hundreds of dollars should each fan donate to Nugs for products that don't arrive, while maintaining the "positivity" and "benefit of the doubt" that you prescribe? At one point would you say it's appropriate to complain?

It's interesting that you were so moved to defend Nugs that you created a new account to do so, and reference details about the internal operation that are not publicly known. Who are you speaking for? Actually, just, who are you?

You know what? F@ck off with the "first world" problems nonsense. The product didn't, and continues not to deliver its intended value. Case close. Spare me your self-rightous scolding. Many paid THIRTY dollars for a product that was so woefully untested that it predictably collapsed...again. That said, the free webcast was at least better than being crapped on by nugs CSR's when previous issues arose.

We all love this band, but let's not pretend this isn't a business in which a proprietor is selling goods to a consumer and the consumer expects the goods to function as intended.

I applaud and would stand right alongside the poster. Kudos I guess for stating the obvious...

@schwitze said:

What a bunch of fucking whiners. I'm sure the people who drowned on the titanic feel terrible for you that you weren't able to hear every second of your concert as it happened.

I was also unsuccessful in watching the show until YouTube late in the first set. My world did not come crashing to an end and neither did yours. I can't believe that this was actually posted as a blog on phish.net. I'd expect it as a rant on the forum, but not as a blog posting. You all need to put this in perspective.

So, when you buy goods/services elsewhere, do you simply just say "f it," I ordered a vegan muffin, but this bacon/chocolate doughnut will do because, well, my world won't come crashing down because of it? If so, I guess I'm a real buttface of a person in comparison to you.

@wheelitzo said:

After everything that happened last night, this is what phish.net decides to post. This is embarrassing.

this. I'm not saying the issues regarding the webcast and the way nugs.net handles it shouldn't to be discussed, but a different time and possibly even place would have been more appropriate. This whole thread sucks.

This is a fair argument. Sure, the stream quality is total shit but man, what a thing to put your undies in a bunch. Isn't it a miracle of technology that we can sit in our overly comfortable couches with our laptops and still have something to complain about? I think it's so cool that Phish and their cohorts care enough about the phans to provide us with free access to their music.

i totally disagree with this, have you ever played a new video game that allows you to play online with your friends? the servers are always fucked in the beginning, this is just an example, phish came out with a new app that lagged up all the servers im guessing, their tech guy made the mistake, you shouldnt hold it against the fucking band, they still played a great show didnt they? and thats what its about. they also put the webcast on youtube and you got to finish the night without one lag. yes i did pay the $30 and yes i was very annoyed at the beginning of first set not being able to connect. but they covered their tracks and did the best they could to make up for the little speed bump, welcome to the 21st century where electronics have made us need "instant gratification" which is bullshit, whatever happened to not even being able to see the fucking setlist for weeks when there was no web? or not being able to listen to the show until a buddy let you use his tape? i wish this was still the situation with phish, yes times have changed but count your damn blessings that this band is still around and jamming hard. just saying, have some damn patience people.

When I was clicking and buying my SD webcast, I also was wondering why HD was an option. Then I saw that it was ten dollars more and that answered my question. It's not enough to get a live feed of an awesome show in standard definition but you entitled pixel addicts must have it in HD? Is that one dimensional light show that much better?

@guppy said:

have some damn patience people.

I've been patient for 4 years. And again, when people BUY something- you kind of expect it to be delivered. If anyone went to Starbucks and ordered and paid for six coffees and was given four and then told "Sorry! See you Later- NO REFUND! Come back another day we might credit you! we know this happens a lot but "nothing we can do"...please be patient!", I think the reaction would be different.

@dunwyth said:

But a little positivity, patience and benefit of the doubt would be helpful here.

We all love the band and are typically very positive and given benefit of the doubt many times. It gets to the point where enough is enough. Curious though: With your calm demeanor and attitude that it is all rainbows and unicorns: Did you try webcasting on Halloween? Had you paid for the stream?

@Th3Ghos5t
There is very little proposed in the original manifesto. Mostly complaints and comparisons used as reasoning to support an entitled opinion.

If we never meet on tour that is fine. I don't really go "on tour" anymore. That was my point. You can love Phish and move on to other things. If people want to see every phish show and phish is willing to offer webcasts then great. If your car breaks down on the road to the show do you throw a tantrum about the maker of the car and make remarks of how they do nothing to support you? It is a reality of the choice people make.

This whole issue is ridiculous. "I paid $30 for a webcast and so I am entitled to a product." Cool, I understand. But if it doesn't work out, take it like a grown-up, save the conspiracy-esque drivel and let your actions and dollars speak for you by not spending them on this product. STOP ORDERING WEBCASTS. Request a refund. Don't take up space here with some waste of space commentary on how a night was ruined. The level of disappointment expressed in the original statement could have been said in one paragraph and made a better point.

Have a good one.

@J_D_G said
"It is seriously your contention that the original poster should feel "gratitude" for paying $30 for a stream and then not getting a stream?"

No. It's seriously my contention that the band did what they could to fix the problem including delivering a stream that worked in the end PLUS provided a free stream on YouTube PLUS gave a free show in the future for those who payed $30.

That's called customer service.

I appreciate if a fan is trying to give constructive feedback, but this is not constructive nor feedback. It's whining.

@irieied said:

@J_D_G said
"It is seriously your contention that the original poster should feel "gratitude" for paying $30 for a stream and then not getting a stream?"

No. It's seriously my contention that the band did what they could to fix the problem including delivering a stream that worked in the end PLUS provided a free stream on YouTube PLUS gave a free show in the future for those who payed $30.

That's called customer service.

I appreciate if a fan is trying to give constructive feedback, but this is not constructive nor feedback. It's whining.

As the author of this blog piece made clear, perhaps if this were an isolated occurrence and the company had made more obvious efforts to update its service offerings to those of its many competitors in this field, and was more consumer friendly and not remote and aloof, your comment that this constitutes "good customer service" which should not engender complaints and "whining" might be more apropos.

I'm curious as to whether you apply this metric to your own life. When your boss, significant other or friends chastise you for the inventible screw ups we all do as human beings, do you take responsibility, make amends and take corrective actions, or do you brush off such valid criticisms as "whining"? If the latter, how is that working out for you?

@Jephwa14 said:

@schwitze said:

What a bunch of fucking whiners. I'm sure the people who drowned on the titanic feel terrible for you that you weren't able to hear every second of your concert as it happened.

I was also unsuccessful in watching the show until YouTube late in the first set. My world did not come crashing to an end and neither did yours. I can't believe that this was actually posted as a blog on phish.net. I'd expect it as a rant on the forum, but not as a blog posting. You all need to put this in perspective.

So, when you buy goods/services elsewhere, do you simply just say "f it," I ordered a vegan muffin, but this bacon/chocolate doughnut will do because, well, my world won't come crashing down because of it? If so, I guess I'm a real buttface of a person in comparison to you.

Your comparison is inapt. Its not a question of ordering a vegan donut and getting a bacon/chocolate one. It is a question of ordering a vegan donut and having to wait longer than I anticipated to get it.

@schwitze said:

@Jephwa14 said:

@schwitze said:

What a bunch of fucking whiners. I'm sure the people who drowned on the titanic feel terrible for you that you weren't able to hear every second of your concert as it happened.

I was also unsuccessful in watching the show until YouTube late in the first set. My world did not come crashing to an end and neither did yours. I can't believe that this was actually posted as a blog on phish.net. I'd expect it as a rant on the forum, but not as a blog posting. You all need to put this in perspective.

So, when you buy goods/services elsewhere, do you simply just say "f it," I ordered a vegan muffin, but this bacon/chocolate doughnut will do because, well, my world won't come crashing down because of it? If so, I guess I'm a real buttface of a person in comparison to you.

Your comparison is inapt. Its not a question of ordering a vegan donut and getting a bacon/chocolate one. It is a question of ordering a vegan donut and having to wait longer than I anticipated to get it.

oh yeah, and then the donut place gives me a voucher for a free donut on my next visit. I forgot about that part. Get over it, dude.

@lumpblockclod said:

@J_D_G said:

Someone actually said the original poster is "sooo lucky" that the webcasts are offered in the first place, so he shouldn't complain when he buys a webcast and it doesn't work. Let me ask: is that the attitude YOU use toward ANYTHING in the real world that you buy? "Oh, this tv I just bought doesn't turn on...but I'm soooo lucky the store sells them at all, so my bad, them's the breaks"???

So true. Gee, Comcast really doesn't deliver on their promised download speeds, but just 20 short years ago I was using a dial-up modem and this is faster than that. I guess I'm pretty lucky and the good people at Comcast can go ahead and keep my money. Wouldn't want to come across as a whiney bitch.

My point was simply there didn't use to be this option and it's lucky you even have it. Most bands don't go out of their way to make themselves that accessible to the fans. And if you buy a TV and it shits out, they give you a new TV. If you buy a webcast and it shits out, they give you a new webcast. If your new TV doesn't work during the super bowl do you go to the store and whine about how it ruined your party or do you say "my tv broke.. Id like a new one."

I'm almost forty. I come from a land of chasing down tapes and SASE sent across the country. My first modem was 5600 bps. The fact I can stream a show live on mixlr or watch it via webacast was a pipedream when I came on the scene. I wake up every morning and download the SBDs. It's so very easy now and I don't take it for granted. I also don't cry when it doesn't work out exactly the way I want it to.

It should be fixed. The technology is there. I just took exception to the ROCK BOTTOM part. Priorities.

@jackl said:

@Roachdog74 said:

Is is possible that the problem is with your local internet connection (Comcast?) and maybe not the actual stream? The internet experience is only as good as its weakest part. Just a thought.

Oh, you mean the largest cable monopoly that's seeking government permission to merge with the second largest cable monopoly and insure that even crappier service will be provided? Well, in that case, Nugs.net will have even more figuring out to do to attempt to provide reliable service for a high price.

Thanks for writing this, Chris. It needed to be said. Many of you who are critical of this opinion can't distinguish between the band and its management and business partners and think everything about Phish needs to be fluffed; you need to get a clue.

By the way, as to you who don't think this opinion should be on Phish.net, this IMO is exactly where it needs to be. Phish.net speaks for the organized fan base on the Internet as it always has going back to 1990. And it's not incidental that the fan charity that runs this site has invested (and continues to invest) thousands of dollars and countless man hours of unpaid volunteer effort working on the code base behind this site to insure that the site doesn't crash when up to 30,000 page requests hit on the servers at the same time during a show, something Nugs and TicketMaster need to figure out how to do as well.

Seeing that $29.95 debit card charge on my online bank statement today makes me mad. If it weren't that it was a Phish business partner, people like me would be on the phone today asking for the charges to be reversed. Some email acknowledgement (and apologies/refund) from Nugs.net/LivePhish today would also have been appropriate but nothing but crickets.

I rarely have any problem at all with the webcasts. This is an anomoly.

Man...what a load of shit.

First off, Did you really just compare not getting a webcast to the Titanic disaster weird somewhere around 1000 people died? I wonder where Chernobyl and the Holicaust stand in your me-first world of spoiled little brat problems.

Ok, Live Phish's new partnership got off to a rocky start, but I have a hard time believing that they weren't prepared. I'm willing to bet that the free webcast to end summer tour on EST got a large number of hits as well and I was problem free.

The only time before this in the past two years I've had webcast issues,I rebooted my modem and the problem went away.

The live phish tweet was unfortunate, but if they said "those connecting with mobile devices have had no problem" -that statement was true. I blue toothed from my cell the entire time until the free you tube stream came up.

The fact that they gave us the free you tube streak speaks volumes of their determination to do what was right. They acted quickly and decisively. Less than 30minutes into a five hour show, they were making amends. Less than half hour later, they were offering a free future webcast.

What you wrote didn't "need to be said." They were the rankings of a glass-half-empty, angry, butter person whose priorities are desperately out of whack. For all the pain suffering poverty hunger disease in the world - your panties are in an uproar over a thirty minute delay watching a thirty year old rock band you've seen 100 times before.

If you are this angry over a 30 minute delay met by prompt and decisive action that resulted in all of us getting a free webcast -if hours later you are still boiling with rage over a concert you actually got to hear - then you need to seek some help and I pity whoever lives with you if this is how upset you get over something so insignificant.

@ProfJibboo said:

If you are this angry over a 30 minute delay met by prompt and decisive action that resulted in all of us getting a free webcast -if hours later you are still boiling with rage over a concert you actually got to hear - then you need to seek some help and I pity whoever lives with you if this is how upset you get over something so insignificant.

And if you need to characterize his post as "rage" and attack him personally, then you need to take a step back.

The knee-jerk defensiveness on display in this comments thread is Phish fans' least endearing quality. It's almost as if some feel that their identity is under attack, and immediately rush forth to defend...

It's really simple. Over the years, the band and organization have acted in ways that give the impression that making a buck and treating fans well are not competing priorities. They don't apologize for making money, and the key to their ability to turn a profit is earning and keeping fans' goodwill. So far, so hippy.

OP isn't attacking Phish. That ought to be obvious to anyone who's been around for a while. OP is pointing out that Phish's actions are not serving their own interests.

If I can get political for a moment, it's like pointing out that invading Iraq is, maybe, not the awesomest idea in the world. Maybe it's not really justified. Maybe it will create or exacerbate more problems than it will solve. Dissent isn't treason. It really can be patriotic. Really, the knee-jerk, defensive bashing of OP looks a lot like "It's really simple. You're either for us, or you're against us. You don't have a choice. Either you support the war, or you support Bin Laden."

That had the intellectual integrity of a temper tantrum in 2003. While Phish shows really aren't life or death, some of the above comments seem equally pants-on-head stupid.

1. Phish wants to treat fans well, because their business model depends on loyal fans treating the band well.

2. LivePhish video streaming kind of sucks, and it pretty much always has.

3. Streaming video will always be prone to the occasional glitch, but it doesn't need to suck as badly as it so often does.

4. Acknowledging the basic truth of this, and responding to it, will generate goodwill among fans, and may build fan/customer confidence in future retail/streaming offerings.

5. Everyone wins.

Speaking only for myself, I stream 1-2 events per year. I'd be willing to pay for several more, possibly even all of them. As it is, I only do so when there seem to be no other interesting options. LivePhish is a $20 lottery ticket. If there's even a half-decent film that I haven't seen yet, that wins and streaming Phish loses. I learned a while ago that, while Phish is great, so is a lot of the rest of the world. Sometimes, I'm just not in the mood for a hassle.

@ProfJibboo said:

Man...what a load of shit.

First off, Did you really just compare not getting a webcast to the Titanic disaster weird somewhere around 1000 people died? I wonder where Chernobyl and the Holicaust stand in your me-first world of spoiled little brat problems.

Ok, Live Phish's new partnership got off to a rocky start, but I have a hard time believing that they weren't prepared. I'm willing to bet that the free webcast to end summer tour on EST got a large number of hits as well and I was problem free.

The only time before this in the past two years I've had webcast issues,I rebooted my modem and the problem went away.

The live phish tweet was unfortunate, but if they said "those connecting with mobile devices have had no problem" -that statement was true. I blue toothed from my cell the entire time until the free you tube stream came up.

The fact that they gave us the free you tube streak speaks volumes of their determination to do what was right. They acted quickly and decisively. Less than 30minutes into a five hour show, they were making amends. Less than half hour later, they were offering a free future webcast.

What you wrote didn't "need to be said." They were the rankings of a glass-half-empty, angry, butter person whose priorities are desperately out of whack. For all the pain suffering poverty hunger disease in the world - your panties are in an uproar over a thirty minute delay watching a thirty year old rock band you've seen 100 times before.

If you are this angry over a 30 minute delay met by prompt and decisive action that resulted in all of us getting a free webcast -if hours later you are still boiling with rage over a concert you actually got to hear - then you need to seek some help and I pity whoever lives with you if this is how upset you get over something so insignificant.

Wow. Uh... That's intensely personal of you.

While you've invited me to draw lots of pejorative conclusions about you (as you did about my mental health and the well-being of my family, among other facets of my existence), I'm going to refrain from doing so. I suspect you're a fairly decent person in real life who just hasn't figured out the whole "how to disagree on the internet without insulting people" thing.

I apologize for the personal attack. That was wrong, unwarranted and unjustified. The downvotes my comment received are warranted.

I appreciate that, @ProfJibboo. Thank you.

Anyone who thinks this post, or anything negative ever, is out of line on phish.net...GOD...Please go somewhere else. The person who bought the webcast bought a product and is entitled to a decent product. She didn't get it and I would suspect that this isn't the first time. It wasn't for me. She has a right to complain here. Phish is responsible for the integrity of the product adorned with their name.

I'm amazed at how people have ripped you for your post and can't even comprehend how they think this was a review of the show. It's good to see some people get what you're saying here. I think jsauce summed it up pretty well. When you buy a product and it's defective you have a right to a refund. I was so busy trying to refresh and even get access to LivePhish that I didn't know it was on YouTube until someone sent me a message. I realize Phish made an announcement somewhere, but when you're busy trying to even get access to LivePhish that is your focus.

We love Phish and that's why we are passionate and we're entitled to say it was a frustrating mess. That is the nature of our community. We debate the good, the bad and the ugly.

Keep posting!

The only way to fix something is to discover and discuss the problem. Everyone who is being so harsh to OP: you can send me 30 dollars and I"ll give you a crappy stream for the entire first set. I mean, if you don't mind and all...

I have ordered two two live webcast and both times they have lagged. I have the fastest internet speed you can get and was still disappointed. I would hope that the boys would make a change for their loyal fans that either are shut out of the show or tour veterans that can't make the trip but are willing to pay $30 to see our favorite band, but I won't spend that money again for subpar streaming. I worry that the phish we grew up with is not the same phish we have grown to know and love. If your okay selling out to livenation, why not sell out to a better web cast provider.

I was very glad to see this comment on Phish.net. A site created by fans, and an offshoot of one of the first web based fan discussion forums of any band. Phish took note, and cared what was said. Things have changed a lot since 1991, or whenever Phish.net (Fuggles) was first created. I was not so happy to see all of the bashing of @bertoletdown. Was I surprised? No.

People are always so quick to defend Phish when they are "attacked" in any way (let them piss in your ears). Chris wasn't attacking Phish, he was pointing out how poorly run LivePhish is. And poorly run it is. 4 years since the last update? Streams behaving like the 2000 Vegas stream, yet it's 2014? Yeah, that's garbage.

People say this has nothing to do with Phish the band. That's ridiculous. If it comes from Phish, Inc., it ultimately goes back to JEMP. I understand why they made Phish, Inc. a bare bones operation after Coventry. And with that bare bones operation came the outsourcing of Phish management to Red Light. And that is where the issue lies, IMO. If Dionysian Productions were still managing Phish, I don't think the LivePhish debacle would continue. Not sure where Nugs falls into the Red Light / Dionysian comparison, but I truly if believe if Phish were still actively engaged with all things Phish, A-Z, the way they were before the previous dissolution of Phish, Inc., things would be different.

Good to see a lot of support for the original post. We bought a product, one that gets more expensive every year, and not receiving the product deserves a refund. If you buy a product in a store and it's defective, you take it back for a refund. Livephish's shoddy customer service reflects badly on the band. I'm surprised Phish tolerates the eroding service provided for ever increasing sums.

LivePhish and nugs absolutely sucks. Listen, I paid 30 damn dollars for a webcast that wa an abortion, technically, before it even started. I KNEW something was wrong and sure enough, it was. There IS ZERO excuse for what happened. Phish management has got to start listening. LivePhish sucks. Nugs sucks. and both need to be done away with and re-managed.

@JMart said:

Anyone who thinks this post, or anything negative ever, is out of line on phish.net...GOD...Please go somewhere else. The person who bought the webcast bought a product and is entitled to a decent product. She didn't get it and I would suspect that this isn't the first time. It wasn't for me. She has a right to complain here. Phish is responsible for the integrity of the product adorned with their name.

"If you don't think like me, go somewhere else." That's a productive statement. I thought this was a discussion board, not just a place for people to gather to bitch and moan about the webcast. I may disagree with you, but you certainly have the right to express your opinion. That's what this forum is for.

White people problems

@jackl said:

@ColForbin said:

I say this all with great appreciation for the donations to the Mockingbird Foundation that have been made from the proceeds of LivePhish sales. That is a truly generous gesture from a very charitable band.(snip)

Just to clarify and keep this namecheck and appreciation real, it is PHISH, tha band, that donates a portion of its revenues from LivePhish to the charitable efforts of our fan charity, the Mockingbird Foundation. Its business partner Nugs.net does not, although it claims some marketing benefit on its website for this donation. I am sure that if Phish changed service providers for streaming, it would keep donating the same portion of its revenues to TMF.

Jack, thanks for clarifying this point.

@Dunwyth said:

There are a few models out there that work well for paid-event streaming, most particularly in sports. But those are on a tremendous scale - the economics for those ecosystems are massive, exponentially higher than what Live Phish / Nugs has to work with. In the music realm, Phish has no competitors. There is NO ONE doing what they do in the music space. Yes, there are companies out there that are trying - TourGigs, for example. But none of those webcasts draw any real traffic compared to Phish. There have been plenty of ventures in this space, and they have all failed. TourGigs may not exist in 24 months. And if companies like that tried to work with Phish, they'd be out of their league. Not in the video production end, but the streaming end.

From what I know Nugs has worked hard to build backup/redundancy/failsafe options for streaming from the venue. They have multiple paths going for every webcast, including a recently purchased satellite backup. Last night's issue seemed to be a data center issue, which must have been incredibly frustrating, because that's a third party vendor that Nugs does not control. Also: 9 times out of 10 the stream issues that people experience though (glitchy feeds that cut out) are on the user side, not the server side.

What Nugs needs to do, and quick: explore redundancy at every point in their chain and take a Customer Service 101 class (though they have come a LONG way in this area, at Phish's direction). They simply can't afford to lose any more good will. Phish would be smart to explore alternative vendors that can power the stream in a turnkey way.

I'm sure it was incredibly frustrating for you Bertolet if you were throwing a Halloween party to not be able to connect. I'm sure backstage at the venue they were FREAKING THE FUCK OUT too. Very smart of them to pull the ripcord and port the stream to Youtube last night. That was the nuclear option, so I'm sure it was not an easy decision.

But a little positivity, patience and benefit of the doubt would be helpful here.

This reads like it's straight from Nugs.net PR! Customer service has most decidedly not improved one tiny bit; it's only gotten worse and worse. They only updated the app because they were embarrassed into it and their stock response to webcast problems that "other people are getting it" as if that absolves them of responsibility is the worst thing they could tell people. I love Phish but I'd really love to see them with these losers.

I can't believe that when someone purchases a product and that's not delivered, people are rushing to defend the company that fucked up. This is only Phish's fault for partnering with nugs.net. The bigger issue is that Phish is not only destroying the goodwill created between their crowd and the band, they are underestimating it.

Our love for the band enables them to avoid doing something that literally every single other huge band has to do - spend millions on marketing. All they need to do is announce a tour and we happily do the marketing for them and buy up the tickets instantly. This creates an incredible overhead for them that no other band enjoys. In return, their partnership with nugs.net comes across as ill-advised at best and a money-grab at worst. As a fanbase, we have proven that when Phish gives, we give right back. They need to stop partnering with a company that's only interesting in taking. It's not a very Phishy thing to do.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Phish for delivering a value added service at a reasonable price. I am confident that they'll continue to invest in the infrastructure and strive to deliver a sound product.

@ColForbin said:

I say this all with great appreciation for the donations to the Mockingbird Foundation that have been made from the proceeds of LivePhish sales. That is a truly generous gesture from a very charitable band.

But what happened last night was inexcusable. It has nothing to do with how hard it is to stream video, which I will admit is technologically challenging. The LivePhish.com website was unavailable for an extended period. Not just the stream, the website. People couldn't even get to their stash to begin to try to watch the video. This was a failure at serving simple HTML. This indicates either a high level of incompetence or unpreparedness for the interest in the most anticipated show of 2014. Or both.

What we pay for when we buy a webcast is a live stream, as the show is happening. An archived stream doesn't make up for it. A code for a new stream doesn't make up for it. What will make up for it is if this never happens again. And if Phish can't ensure that, they should stop selling streams for top dollar, because the product isn't worth it.

Amen. No excuses for what happened.

No way I'm gonna read all these comments...but has anyone thought that maybe the stream cut out because of greedy fans piggybacking on other people's accounts? If there was a feature in place that made it so each livephish account could only stream the event on one device at time, I bet all these problems would go away....

@J_D_G said:

@FACTSAREUSELESS said: Still think there is a more productive way to make the point than ripping them on a public fan site. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I feel about it.

Well there have been countless (by which I mean thousands, perhaps tens of thousands) tweets at LivePhish, almost all of which have gone unanswered. I've also been shown some fans' detailed, polite private emails to LivePhish noting the problems and cheerfully suggesting solutions...which went unanswered. Not even a form letter saying "thanks for writing." Nothing. Silence.

So now, here is a post about the problem on the leading, best-read fan site.

There's a much better way, you complain? What is it you had in mind? Please respond.

These are good clarifications. In light of these revelations, I would have to agree that the post is necessary.

To further develop this thread, I'd like to add that Greensky Bluegrass is awesome.

It never ceases to amaze that me that no matter how many shows people attend or how many years they have followed the band or how many foundations they support, that they just don't get it.

I feel bad that the OP, and all the head-nodders on this thread, had a bad night. I really do. Because Phish had a really really great night. Historically great. And, I'm thoroughly entertained by the b-school 101 discussions about the business and "brand" of Phish in the comments. Wait, did someone say BRAND? Well, with all due respect to the second rate education that your parents have/are no doubt paying for, you have zero - and I mean zero - idea what you are talking about. I would advise you to drop out of b school or your go-nowhere mid level marketing job immediately and go sell grill cheese on the lot, but that would require business skills that you don't and will never have.

Let me break it down: Phish's future rests solely (as in, solely) on their ability to play inspired, creative, transformative music. It is Randalls, it is the tahoe tweezer, and it most certainly is Vegas 2014. They melt faces, and we supply the faces. That's it.

Need more? If their playing is blah, and Live Phish is great, then they have nothing. If the playing is great, and LivePhish is below average, they still have it, you dig? Anything that distracts from the music, is just that, a distraction. I do not - and you should not - want them to get more "involved" in the business or phish, or the "distribution" of phish - because that means they are going to be less involved in the music of Phish, and that is all I care about. LP is, and will always be, a bonus. I mean, the person above who said something about Phish "FREAKING OUT" backstage (between sets I and II I presume) about the LP problems - please. I have no idea what they were doing or thinking or saying, but if I were to lay a bet it would be putting on costumes and getting ready to throw down an hour of the most out-there shit they have ever dropped, with a full theatrical extravaganza ta boot. ta boot.

The timing of this thread in relation to the events that were happening on stage the same weekend - could there have been a more tone deaf time to express these complaints, which what, amounted to 30 minutes of a busted dinner party until someone went nuclear and involved youtube? I would say no, but then again, the titanic was used in the original analogy, so there is apparently no ceiling here on tone deaf.

@birdmanpdx said:

It never ceases to amaze that me that no matter how many shows people attend or how many years they have followed the band or how many foundations they support, that they just don't get it.

It's okay, you'll get it someday. Don't be so hard on yourself.